<html><body name="Mail Message Editor"><br>On Aug 28, 2008, at 5:04:53 PM, "Gerald I. Evenden" <geraldi.evenden@gmail.com> wrote:<br><blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; color: blue; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div style="width: 100%; "><div id="felix-mail-header-block" style="color: black; background-color: white; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: silver; padding-bottom: 1em; margin-bottom: 1em; width: 100%; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: -webkit-monospace; font-size: 11px; ">Let's see. tan(x) has two values at x=90 degrees: +inf and -inf. So it is no </span><br></div><div id="felix-mail-content-block" style="color: black; background-color: white; width: 100%; "><div style="font-family: monospace; color: black; background-color: white; font-size: 8pt; ">longer a function, eh?</div></div></div></span></blockquote><div>Infinity is not a value. Your conception and definitions are not mathematical.</div><div><br></div><div>Tangent is undefined at an abscissa of 90°±180°, with the ordinate increasing asymptotically as the abscissa approaches 90°±180° from lesser values, and with the ordinate decreasing asymptotically as the abscissa approaches 90°±180° from greater values. I will not respond to any argument over this, since it is basic mathematics, available anywhere. Any mathematician would disagree with your characterization. Infinity as a value is a convenient fiction, but it does not always work, and it does not bear on the question of whether tangent is a function or not.</div><blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; color: blue; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div style="width: 100%; "><div id="felix-mail-content-block" style="color: black; background-color: white; width: 100%; "><div style="font-family: monospace; color: black; background-color: white; font-size: 8pt; ">I can't find any such distinction for the definition of a "function." Please <br>give reference.</div></div></div></span></blockquote><div>See, for example, </div><div><br></div><div>http://mathworld.wolfram.com/MultivaluedFunction.html<br></div><div><br></div><div>A bazillion other Web pages will do, easily searched for.</div><blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; color: blue; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div style="width: 100%; "><div id="felix-mail-content-block" style="color: black; background-color: white; width: 100%; "><div style="font-family: monospace; color: black; background-color: white; font-size: 8pt; ">Even if your questionable definition were true, it merely verifies that <br>proj_fwd() is a function because it only returns one value. It is defined <br>that way in the documentation<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">.</span></div></div></div></span></blockquote>
<div>You have, yet again, confused yourself about the who is arguing what. Yes. You treat projections as functions. That's clear. That's always been clear. That's THE problem. You have decided it's not YOUR problem, so now it's your clients' problem. That doesn't make the problem go away. It just changes who it's a problem for. I have specifically acknowledged multiple times that you have chosen, for your convenience, to ignore the multivalued results of projection formulæ in order to treat projections as functions. Why are you crowing about this evidence of proj_fwd() being a function when its functional nature is exactly why we're even having this conversation?</div><blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; color: blue; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div style="width: 100%; "><div id="felix-mail-content-block" style="color: black; background-color: white; width: 100%; "><div style="font-family: monospace; color: black; background-color: white; font-size: 8pt; ">In terms of interruptions applying to all projections I presume you are <br>referring to the del-lon=180 condition. In many projection software this is <br>not a break and the map merely repeats on in the x direction.</div></div></div></span></blockquote>
<div>That is impossible for almost all projections that are not cylindric or pseudocylindric. It's merely a convenient evasion of responsibility that works for two common classes of projections. Meanwhile it can't work for most projections because most projections depend on trigonometric (and therefore periodic) manipulations of longitude, resulting in extended longitudinal ranges wrapping back onto themselves — resulting, even, on 180°E mapping onto 180°W.</div><blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; color: blue; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div style="width: 100%; "><div id="felix-mail-content-block" style="color: black; background-color: white; width: 100%; "><div style="font-family: monospace; color: black; background-color: white; font-size: 8pt; ">As far as I am <br>aware it is always the graphic programmers job to handle this condition and <br>not the projection routine: when at the map edge recall the function with the <br>sign of the lon term reversed.</div></div></div></span></blockquote><div>As far as "recall the function with the sign of the lon term reversed" goes, see the prior comment.</div><div><br></div><div>This was never about whose job it is. You're free to decide what's your job and what isn't. Rather, it's a matter of what has to happen regardless of who does what in order to get the job done. </div><div><br></div><div>You have declared with much sophistry that somehow the ellipsoidal transverse Mercator can't be accommodated in libproj4 because of the cusps. That's nonsense. There is nothing unique to that projection from libproj4's perspective. Since you have put the onus of interruptions and odd boundaries on the client, then the same would be true in the case of the ellipsoidal transverse Mercator. Meanwhile libproj4 could happily provide one result of the multivalued formulæ along the cusp, just as it does for every projection.</div><blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; color: blue; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div style="width: 100%; "><div id="felix-mail-content-block" style="color: black; background-color: white; width: 100%; "><div style="font-family: monospace; color: black; background-color: white; font-size: 8pt; ">BTW: you are the first person I have ever heard that refers to the wrap-around <br>condition of longitude as an interruption if, indeed, that is what you are <br>referring to.</div></div></div></span></blockquote>
<div>That is what I am referring to. It is an interruption by any rational analysis. I don't care if you call it a phlabbergompkin to distinguish it from what you call an interruption (which you would never be able to provide a definition for that's not arbitrary). It's exactly the same thing, and what you seem to think of as an "uninterrupted" map is undeniably interrupted. It's not important what it's called. It's important what it does. What it does is separate points on the map that are adjacent on the globe.</div><blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; color: blue; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div style="width: 100%; "><div id="felix-mail-content-block" style="color: black; background-color: white; width: 100%; "><div style="font-family: monospace; color: black; background-color: white; font-size: 8pt; ">If there are other examples, other than projections commonly recognized as <br>interrupted (for example Goode) *please* name them.</div></div></div></span></blockquote><div>*Berghaus star</div><div>*Peirce quincuncial</div><div>*Waterman</div><div>*Fuller dymaxion</div><div>*Cahill butterfly</div><div>*Guyou</div><div>*Raizs armadillo</div><div>*two-point equidistant</div><div>*vertical perspective</div><div>*general perspective</div><div>*all of the dozens of polyhedral projections described in the literature</div><div>*any projection in oblique aspect (which you handle with something of a hack, it appears)</div><div><br></div><div>Since whatever definition you use for "interruption" appears to be arbitrary, and I have no access to your arbitrary definition, I cannot guarantee that you'll agree that all the projections in that list are "interrupted" by your definition but are not "commonly recognized" as interrupted. That's not my problem, and I will not argue over the list or its meaning. I chose projections whose natural boundaries do not follow the common cylindric or azimuthal bounding parallels and meridians. The list is hardly exhaustive.</div><div><br></div><div>Perhaps you'll claim those are all cartoon projections, or nobody uses them, or whatever else. I don't care. Not my problem. It's a reasonable policy for you to limit your software to handle 95% of the needs and blow off the rest. It's not reasonable for you to claim your reasons are founded on some natural property of map projections. They're not. My point has only ever been that you're rationalizing your decision not to support the ellipsoidal transverse Mercator with fallacious arguments, and I do not wish for the (doubtless rapidly fading) audience to be confused by such remarks.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>-- daan Strebe</div><div><br></div><br>On Aug 28, 2008, at 5:04:53 PM, "Gerald I. Evenden" <geraldi.evenden@gmail.com> wrote:<br><blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; color: blue; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="width: 100%; "><div id="felix-mail-header-block" style="color: black; background-color: white; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: silver; padding-bottom: 1em; margin-bottom: 1em; width: 100%; "><table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td width="70px" style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 8pt; color: gray; text-align: right; vertical-align: top; font-weight: bold; "><span>From:</span></td><td style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 8pt; color: black; text-align: left; vertical-align: top; padding-left: 5px; "><span title=""Gerald I. Evenden" <geraldi.evenden@gmail.com>">"Gerald I. Evenden" <geraldi.evenden@gmail.com></span></td></tr><tr><td width="70px" style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 8pt; color: gray; text-align: right; vertical-align: top; font-weight: bold; "><span>Subject:</span></td><td style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 8pt; color: black; text-align: left; vertical-align: top; padding-left: 5px; "><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Re: Global Gauss-Kruger and libproj4---the final story</span></td></tr><tr><td width="70px" style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 8pt; color: gray; text-align: right; vertical-align: top; font-weight: bold; "><span>Date:</span></td><td style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 8pt; color: black; text-align: left; vertical-align: top; padding-left: 5px; "><span>August 28, 2008 5:04:53 PM PDT</span></td></tr><tr><td width="70px" style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 8pt; color: gray; text-align: right; vertical-align: top; font-weight: bold; "><span>To:</span></td><td style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 8pt; color: black; text-align: left; vertical-align: top; padding-left: 5px; "><span title="strebe@aol.com">strebe@aol.com</span></td></tr><tr><td width="70px" style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 8pt; color: gray; text-align: right; vertical-align: top; font-weight: bold; "><span>Cc:</span></td><td style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 8pt; color: black; text-align: left; vertical-align: top; padding-left: 5px; "><span title="proj@lists.maptools.org">proj@lists.maptools.org</span></td></tr></tbody></table></div><div id="felix-mail-content-block" style="color: black; background-color: white; width: 100%; "><div style="font-family: monospace; color: black; background-color: white; font-size: 8pt; ">On Thursday 28 August 2008 5:30:30 pm strebe@aol.com wrote:<br>> >The only context that I use the term "interruption" in discussing<br>> >cartographic projections are in cases like Goode's world maps or<br>> >"orange peal" charts often using the sinusoidal projection. Please<br>> >define what *you* mean by interruptions.<br>><br>> An interruption is any location where two points of infinitesimal<br>> separation on the globe are mapped to two points having finite separation<br>> on the plane. This happens somewhere on all projections. All along an<br>> interruption, the projection formulæ are no longer a function; they are<br>> multivalue.<br><br>Let's see. tan(x) has two values at x=90 degrees: +inf and -inf. So it is no<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>longer a function, eh?<br><br>I can't find any such distinction for the definition of a "function." Please<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>give reference.<br><br>Even if your questionable definition were true, it merely verifies that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>proj_fwd() is a function because it only returns one value. It is defined<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>that way in the documentation.<br><br>In terms of interruptions applying to all projections I presume you are<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>referring to the del-lon=180 condition. In many projection software this is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>not a break and the map merely repeats on in the x direction. As far as I am<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>aware it is always the graphic programmers job to handle this condition and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>not the projection routine: when at the map edge recall the function with the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>sign of the lon term reversed.<br><br>BTW: you are the first person I have ever heard that refers to the wrap-around<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>condition of longitude as an interruption if, indeed, that is what you are<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>referring to.<br><br>If there are other examples, other than projections commonly recognized as<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>interrupted (for example Goode) *please* name them.<br><br>> Regards,<br>> -- daan Strebe<br><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due<br>to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum.<br>-- Havelock Ellis (1859-1939) British psychologist<br></div></div></div></span></blockquote><br><div><br></div><div class="aol_ad_footer" id="uCA6640176A2A4304BA477C17DD9608FA"><FONT style="color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;"><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px"><A title="http://mapquest.com/toolbar?ncid=mpqmap00050000000010" href="http://mapquest.com/toolbar?ncid=mpqmap00050000000010" target="_blank">Get the MapQuest Toolbar</A>. 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