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It could be that MapInfo/Oracle do not use the 7 parameter Helmert
formula, as used by PROJ, but a grid shift file. The small size of
the deviations make this very probable. Until recently there was no
usable grid shift available for PROJ, but the Dutch Topographical
Service is working on a grid shift file in gsb-format. Nothing has
been made public as yet, but I'll ask them and let you know.<br>
<br>
By the way, this grid shift file works only within the Netherlands.
It will give false results if you try to align coordinates in the
Netherlands and Germany.<br>
<br>
Jan <br>
<br>
On 30-7-2013 12:27, Jelmer Baas wrote:
<blockquote
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Milo, Jan,<o:p></o:p></span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Thanks for the suggestions so far. I tried to
rule out the NL->DE step by first going to WGS84.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Even this transformation doesn’t go the same as
Oracle/MapInfo:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Point
135745.924 517131.216<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Oracle
5.10275163084204 52.6413240233221<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">MapInfo
5.102751 52.641323<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">PostGis
5.10274900325229 52.6413367842089<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">PostGi2
5.10274907007772 52.6413367898401<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">DLL 4
5.10274904569186 52.6413366577093
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">DLL 3
5.102749003361 52.6413367848006<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">DLL 2
5.10274903201512 52.6413367357724<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">DLL 1
5.10274900325279 52.6413367843563
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">DLL ORG
5.10274909884125 52.6413367414033<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">I tried these projection strings:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">+proj=sterea +lat_0=52.15616055555555
+lon_0=5.38763888888889 +k=0.9999079 +x_0=155000 +y_0=463000
+ellps=bessel
+towgs84=565.417,50.3319,465.552,-0.398957,0.343988,-1.8774,4.0725
+units=m +no_defs <><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">+proj=sterea +lat_0=52.15616055555555
+lon_0=5.38763888888889 +k=0.999908 +x_0=155000 +y_0=463000
+ellps=bessel
+towgs84=565.417,50.3319,465.552,-0.398957,0.343988,-1.8774,4.0725
+units=m +no_defs no_defs <> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">+proj=sterea +lat_0=52.156160556
+lon_0=5.387638889 +k=0.9999079 +x_0=155000 +y_0=463000
+towgs84=565.417,50.3319,465.552,-0.398957,0.343988,-1.8774,4.0725
+ellps=bessel +units=m +no_defs no_defs <> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">+proj=sterea +lat_0=52.15616055555555
+lon_0=5.38763888888889 +k=0.999908 +x_0=155000 +y_0=463000
+ellps=bessel +units=m
+towgs84=565.04,49.91,465.84,-0.409394387439237,0.359705195614311,-1.86849100035057,4.0772
+no_defs +to +proj=latlong +datum=WGS84<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">+proj=sterea +lat_0=52.15616055555555
+lon_0=5.38763888888889 +k=0.999908 +x_0=155000 +y_0=463000
+ellps=bessel +units=m
+towgs84=565.2369,50.0087,465.658,-0.406857330322398,0.350732676542563,-1.8703473836068,4.0812
+no_defs <><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">+proj=sterea +lat_0=52.15616055555555
+lon_0=5.38763888888889 +k=0.9999079 +x_0=155000 +y_0=463000
+ellps=bessel
+towgs84=565.04,49.91,465.84,-1.9848,1.7439,-9.0587,4.0772
+units=m +no_defs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" lang="NL">Met vriendelijke groet,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" lang="NL">Jelmer Baas<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" lang="NL">Speer IT B.V.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" lang="NL"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:proj-bounces@lists.maptools.org">proj-bounces@lists.maptools.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:proj-bounces@lists.maptools.org">mailto:proj-bounces@lists.maptools.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Milo van der Linden (gmail)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:57<br>
<b>To:</b> PROJ.4 and general Projections Discussions<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Proj] Netherlands RD (28992) to UTM
Zone 32 (3044) produces shifted coordinates<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:
12pt;">Hello Jelmer,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. I would strongly advice to
transform everything to wgs84 first.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2. wgs84 and etrs89 are based
upon different spheroids/datums. Transforming from
wgs84 TO etrs89 will not be correct if your etrs89
definition does not have +towgs84 defined. And by
default I believe it isn't. Take a look at this
ticket:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://trac.osgeo.org/proj/ticket/15">http://trac.osgeo.org/proj/ticket/15</a>
and see if it is of any help.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">So, what
I would do is:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">epsg:28992
-> wgs84 (visual check) -> etrs89<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Good luck!<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:
12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2013/7/30 Jelmer Baas <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:baas@speerit.nl"
target="_blank">baas@speerit.nl</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span lang="NL">Hello,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang="NL"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>For a new project we need to convert coordinates from
EPSG 28992 to EPSG 3044 with MapInfo, Oracle AND a few
Proj.4 programs (PostGIS, a custom DLL, Proj4js). The
problem we are having is that we're seeing some
shifted coordinates.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>First test point (in the Netherlands)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Origin
135745.924 517131.216</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Proj4js
236345.39474983042 5839505.550959114</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Postgis(1)
236345.390264227 5839505.55017783</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Postgis(2)
236345.394817119 5839505.55055913</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"
lang="NL">MapInfo 236345.47
5839504.058</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"
lang="NL">CS2CSN 236345.39
5839505.55</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">DLL
old(4) 236345.396465174
5839505.54496813</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">DLL
new(3) 236345.390259674
5839505.55009311</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Oracle
236345.49107424 5839504.12246656</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Test point (in Germany)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Origin
254870.45 415123.56</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">MapInfo
350265.960 5731670.259</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Postgis(1)
350263.4072329 5731667.880
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Postgis(2)
350263.4132521 5731667.880
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">DLL
new(3) 350263.407243136
5731667.88019826
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">DLL
old(4) 350263.403514925
5731667.88565864
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Oracle(5)
350265.967728329 5731670.33312477
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">CS2CS
350263.41 5731667.88 43.92 cs2cs
+init=EPSG:28992 +to +init=EPSG:3044</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>It seems MapInfo and Oracle more-or-less agree, as do
all Proj.4-based products. I don’t know which are
“right”, meaning I also don’t know which ones are
wrong – let alone find the fault.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Hopefully someone can help me with this problem, or
at least point me in the right direction.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>(1): <span style="font-family: "Courier
New";">"+proj=sterea +lat_0=52.15616055555555
+lon_0=5.38763888888889 +k=0.9999079 +x_0=155000
+y_0=463000 +ellps=bessel
+towgs84=565.417,50.3319,465.552,-0.398957,0.343988,-1.8774,4.0725
+units=m +no_defs "</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>(2) Another server where I updated the
spatial_ref_system: <span style="font-family:
"Courier New";">
"+proj=sterea +lat_0=52.15616055555555
+lon_0=5.38763888888889 +k=0.9999079 +x_0=155000
+y_0=463000 +ellps=bessel +units=m
+towgs84=565.2369,50.0087,465.658,-0.406857330322398,0.350732676542563,-1.8703473836068,4.0812
+no_defs no_defs"</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>(3) A custom built DLL for usage in VB6.
"+proj=sterea +lat_0=52.15616055555555
+lon_0=5.38763888888889 +k=0.999908 +x_0=155000
+y_0=463000 +ellps=bessel +units=m
+towgs84=565.2369,50.0087,465.658,-0.406857330322398,0.350732676542563,-1.8703473836068,4.0812
+no_defs <>"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>(4) Same DLL. “+proj=sterea +lat_0=52.15616055555555
+lon_0=5.38763888888889 +k=0.9999079 +x_0=155000
+y_0=463000 +ellps=bessel
+towgs84=565.417,50.3319,465.552,-0.398957,0.343988,-1.8774,4.0725
+units=m +no_defs <>”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>(5)<span style="font-family: "Courier
New";"> select
sdo_cs.transform(SDO_GEOMETRY('POINT(254870.45
415123.56)', 90112),25832) from dual;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>(5b) The Oracle definition contains some tags I
don’t see anywhere in Proj.4 (like the Bessel 1841
part): <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>PROJCS["Netherlands National System", GEOGCS [
"Netherlands Bessel", DATUM ["Netherlands Bessel",
SPHEROID ["Bessel 1841", 6377397.155, 299.1528128]],
PRIMEM [ "Greenwich", 0.000000 ], UNIT ["Decimal
Degree", 0.01745329251994330]], PROJECTION
["Stereographic"], PARAMETER ["Scale_Factor",
0.999908], PARAMETER ["Central_Meridian", 5.387639],
PARAMETER ["Latitude_Of_Origin", 52.156161], PARAMETER
["False_Easting", 155000.000000], PARAMETER
["False_Northing", 463000.000000], UNIT ["Meter",
1.000000000000]]
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>A side note is that transformation via my DLL doesn’t
work properly (i.e., coordinates are shifted tens of
meters), unless I *<b>first</b>* transform to WGS84
and then to 3044. I assume this is caused by an
easy-to-fix error, but I don’t know what that is.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>P.S.: PostGIS, Proj4JS and my epsg file are all
up-to-date.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Thanks for any help,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang="NL">With kind regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang="NL">Jelmer Baas</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang="NL"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
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href="http://lists.maptools.org/mailman/listinfo/proj"
target="_blank">http://lists.maptools.org/mailman/listinfo/proj</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<pre wrap="">
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