Re: [Proj] Mugnier's columns / old German maps / von Müffling

Mon Nov 17 11:52:26 EST 2008

http://www.asprs.org/resources/grids/

Jan Hartmann wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I found the posting below on the Proj list (24-7-2004). Prof. Mugnier 
> mentions his Internet-columns, but the URLS he mentions do not exist 
> anymore. Are they still available?
> 
> More in particaular, I am trying to georeference the Tranchot-Map of the 
> Rhineland in Germany, surveyed by French ingénieur-géographes under 
> Colonel  Tranchot from 1804-1813, and by Prussian Ingenieurgeographen 
> under General von Müffling from 1815-1828. Much geodetic information 
> about this survey is available in "Rudolf Schmidt, Die Kartenaufnahme 
> der Rheinlande durch Tranchot und vond Müffling. Teil I: Geschichte des 
> Kartenwerkes und vermessungstechnische Arbeiten, Bonn 1973", but  if 
> someone on this list has further information about this map and the way 
> it was made, I would very much like to hear about it.
> 
> Jan
> 
> Dr. J. Hartmann
> Department of Geography
> University of Amsterdam
> 
> 
> Clifford J Mugnier wrote:
>>
>>  Maciek,
>>
>>  I was surprised to hear of a Transverse Mercator projection on such an 
> old
>>  topo map of German territory since it was so difficult to compute by 
> hand.
>>  Remember now, that Gauss was the first to use it in the early 1800s (for
>>  the survey of Hannover), and he had a staff of several Ph.D. students 
> to do
>>  the "grunt" work for him.  Its main purpose (the Gauss-Conform TM), for
>>  Gauss was to facilitate the survey computations rather than to be used 
> for
>>  a cartographic projection.  The subsequent plane-table mapping for
>>  cadastral surveying (tax mapping) probably was on the Müffling projection
>>  because it was so "easy" to cast under field survey conditions.
>>
>>  The most common projections found in old German applications were the
>>  "Solnder" (nowadays called the Cassini-Soldner) and the "Müffling."  Both
>>  are aphylactic projections, although the Cassini-Soldner is slightly 
> closer
>>  mathematically to the Transverse Mercator than the Müffling.  The more
>>  common name for that projection is the Polyhedric or the "Polyeder."
>>
>>  The ellipsoidal Müffling uses the identical mathematics as the
>>  two-dimentionsional version of the 3D "Local Space Rectangular" (LSR)
>>  coordinate system used in 3D computational photogrammetry.  It is 
> (almost)
>>  the ellipsoidal equivalent of the gnomonic projection.  ALL aphylactic
>>  projections (Müffling/Polyeder, Cassini-Soldner, Bonne, and Polyconic) 
> were
>>  developed to facilitate drafting in the field for plane table and alidade
>>  compilation.  For survey computations, they are awful.  (See my 
> comments in
>>  my ASPRS column on Hong Kong.)
>>
>>  The EXACT ellipsoid parameters and the EXACT number of significant digits
>>  published is critical to high-precision applications of geodetic
>>  transformations.  Variations abound that are correct for certain 
> places for
>>  certain eras.  Exactly when a certain set of defining parameters is 
> correct
>>  has to be discerned from government survey notes and publications.  It is
>>  an EXACT science, but it is also remarkably obscure and esoteric.
>>
>>  Major General von Müffling was one of the first officers in command of 
> the
>>  Topographic Engineer Corps of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.  (See my 
> columns
>>  in PE&RS on Austria, Hungary, Poland, etc. for more details.)
>>
>>  Clifford J. Mugnier
>>  Chief of Geodesy and
>>  Associate Director,
>>  CENTER FOR GEOINFORMATICS
>>  Department of Civil Engineering
>>  LOUISIANA STATE UNIVERSITY
>>  Baton Rouge, LA  70803
>>  Voice and Facsimile:  (225) 578-8536
>>  ======================================================
>>  http://www.ASPRS.org/resources.html
>>  http://www.cee.lsu.edu/facultyStaff/mugnier/index.html
>>  ======================================================
>>
>>
>>  "Paul Kelly" <paul-grass at stjohnspoint.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004, Maciek Sieczka wrote:
>> >
>> > [...]
>> >
>> >> As to the datums I tried 3 different ones and I'm not sure which one is
>> >> really suitable here. I believe I had a best result with the first of
>> >> the mentioned below. Though the reprojection result was very similar
>> >> in each case (max 1-2 m difference) I would like to know which one
>> >> is right if somebody can tell me.
>> >>
>> > None of them are "right"; they are all only approximations to the shift
>> > between the two datums. Number 1 is for central West Germany, number 2
>> >
>>  for
>>
>> > southern west Germany, and number 3 seems to be general for the whole
>> >
>>  area
>>
>> > the potsdam datum is used in. However there is also a more accurate
>> > 7-parameter transformation for all of Germany on the CRS website (and
>> >
>>  also
>>
>> > in GRASS).
>> >
>>
>>  First I'd like to explain myself. Before I got to understand that 
> there are
>>  different datum transformation parameters available for Potsdam datum I
>>  have
>>  had propably accidently selected the "2." mentioned below when setting up
>>  the mapset in Grass. After that I got to the
>>  http://crs.bkg.bund.de/crseu/crs/descr/eu-countrysel.php?country=DE,
>>  understood a bit more and came to conclussion that "1." would be better
>>  (not
>>  "right" :), ok) in my case - my maps are within 50°20'N - 52°20'N. And
>>  after
>>  your message I finally noticed different Potsdam datum paramteres 
> available
>>  in Grass. Briefly that's why I was, in error, reffering to the "2." as to
>>  the "GRASS 5.3, datum: potsdam". Sorry for that.
>>
>>
>> >> 1. +towgs84=584.8,67.0,400.3,0.105,0.013,-2.378,10.29
>> >> taken from the
>> >> http://crs.bkg.bund.de/crseu/crs/descr/eu-countrysel.php?country=DE ->
>> >> DE_DHDN / GK_3 -> Transf. -> DE_DHDN (Middle) to ETRS89
>> >>
>> >> 2. +towgs84: 597.1,71.4,412.1,0.894,0.068,-1.563,7.58
>> >> GRASS 5.3, datum: potsdam
>> >>
>> >> 3. +towgs84=606.0,23.0,413.0
>> >> GDAL 1.2.0, potsdam bessel, Potsdam Rauenberg 1950 DHDN
>> >>
>>
>>
>> > So it all depends on which part of Germany your map covers, and e.g. if
>> >
>>  it
>>
>> > is not in an area that any of the widely available transformations 
> covers
>> > (e.g. former part of Germany that is now in Poland?)
>> >
>>
>>  Yes, former part of Germany, now in Poland, circa 50°45'N, 15°30' - 15°
>>  50'E.
>>
>>
>> > then for maximum
>> > accuracy you would have to derive your own transformation using 
> locations
>> > of churches as was suggested. But I wouldn't know how to do that...
>> >
>>
>>  Then me neither for sure.
>>
>>  I've noticed that all the German/Bessel 1841 systems on the CRS site
>>  mention slightly different ellipsoid inverse flattening than Grass:
>>
>>  Grass 5.3: 299.1528128
>>  CRS:        299.15281285
>>
>>  Propably not a big difference but how big anyway?
>>
>>  One thing more about the projection I've remembered that the guy I got 
> the
>>  map from mentioned the name "von Müffling". He seemed to know about
>>  the cartography even less than me (would you believe it?) but 
> according to
>>  him the projection was "multilateral projection elaborated by general 
> major
>>  von Müffling" (my own translation from Polish). I treid a brief search
>>  about
>>  this general but nothing. Is it telling anything to anybody?
>>
>>  Maciek
>>
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>>
> 
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